Rachel Getman (she/her) Paul J. Dauenhauer Yes, they also learn things. But this is not very different from anywhere else - learning on the job. Rarely, if ever, is a PhD designed as a student-centred learning program that would justify labelling all the costs as 'the costs of the student'.

Milan Malinsky Paul J. Dauenhauer On student centeredness (1/2): students choose their research project. PIs write grants with a max 10% funding rate to support those projects. PIs work with students to learn their career goals and work with them to identify research experiences/opportunities and class sequences

Milan Malinsky Paul J. Dauenhauer (2/3) To help students achieve those goals. We rearrange our schedules to accommodate student needs and learning opportunities. We drop what we’re doing day and night, weekday and weekend, to respond to student emails and texts. We fly across the country/globe to support

Rachel Getman (she/her) Paul J. Dauenhauer As for this, the level of PI support varies, and well if that’s what your students get then they are lucky 😊.

Could it be though that you also have reasons for the grant writing and conference attendance that are not about students but actually about you and your research?

Milan Malinsky Paul J. Dauenhauer Am I writing grants and attending conferences for myself? In ways. Writing grants helps me clarify my thoughts and keep up with the state of the art and I learn things. But it’s also a huge effort with a low funding rate and lot of associated stress. (1/2)

Milan Malinsky Paul J. Dauenhauer (2/2) Attending conferences, I get to see my colleagues from other institutions. But most of the travel I do is either to support students or perform service to the profession.

Rachel Getman (she/her) Paul J. Dauenhauer Well, you are a very selfless person then and your students are lucky. Their PhD is much more about them and their learning than usual. Certainly way outside the norm I see in academia.

Rachel Getman (she/her) Paul J. Dauenhauer On a side note, people also do sometimes get good and selfless mentors outside of academia. But nowhere would be be acceptable to tell them “Be happy with your low salary, don’t you know how much the building, admin, and your boss’ time costs?”

Milan Malinsky Rachel Getman (she/her) Most faculty I know are selfless supporters of their students that work hard to help them grow as researchers and pursue a wonderful career

Paul J. Dauenhauer Rachel Getman (she/her) This is as disingenuous as the original post. People are not selfless.

Most faculty I know have their research program, get grants to do it, and hire PhD students and/or postdocs to do the work.

Milan Malinsky Rachel Getman (she/her) Most faculty I know give up their summer salary when necessary just to get funding for students. But nobody knows that